Monday, January 7, 2013

The Two John Talbots and The Kings of Deheubarth

Talbot Arms used by the family since the marriage of Gwendolyn Mechyll,
 daughter and sole heir of Prince Rhyss Mechyl,l to Gilbert Talbot.
Photo from Wikipedia

John Talbot is an ancestor whose line joined us through the female side.  Seems this is what we are doomed to.  I have always thought that the best people always married into the family!
The list below is the best progression I can recreate at present for the Talbot line.  Do not take it as exact.

1. Richard Talbot(Formerly tenants of Giffards of Normandy then tenants of Walter Giffard at Woburn and Battlesden in Bedfordshire.)
2. Hugh Talbot
3. Richard Talbot
4. Gilbert Talbot marries Gwendolynn Mechyll Daughter and sole heiress of Prince Rhys Mechyll(see note below)
5. Unknown
6. Sir Richard Talbot marries Sarah Sister of William Beauchamp, (9th Earl of Warwick)
7. Gilbert Talbot Summoned to Parliament is First Baron Talbot
8. Richard Talbot married to Elizabeth Comyn
9. Unknown at this writing.
10. Richard Talbot married Ankaret Le Strange(not the only Le strange that married in).
11.*Their child Sir John Talbot Earl of Shrewsbury and Waterford, married Maude De Neville.
12. Their son John Talbot Earl of Shrewsbury and Waterford,  married Elizabeth Butler
13. Their daughter Anne married Sir Henry Vernon of Haddon.(treasurer to Prince Arthur,  Henry VIII's older brother)
14. Their daughter married Sir Robert Corbet 1477-1513 already charted.
I tend to use the Corbets as a base line because they were the first early line I traced.)

Sir John was the Earl of Shrewsbury(I have yet to research the line in detail.)
My interest in this post is that he was a major player in, and was killed at the battle of Castillon near Bordeaux, France in 1453.(The battle is worth a quick read on Wikipedia)
This was the final battle of the Hundred Years War and a decisive victory for the French.  After that time, the English only held Calais on the continent and eventually lost that as well.  The Wars of the Roses(Not the movie about a divorcing couple and their house) weakened the English crown for so long, that they were unable to continue their attempts to keep French lands.

John was created Earl of Shrewsbury in the second creation of the title in 1442.

  The Corbet's overlords(Remember them from other posts?), the Mongomery family had lost the Shrewsbury title in 1102 when the third Earl joined in a rebellion against the crown as an ally of Robert Curthose(another interesting character to read about.  The name means something like short stockings referring to the fact that Robert was rather short.) in 1101.   The title remained vacant for all of that time in between
John was made Lord High Steward of Ireland and the Earl of Waterford.  The two titles have continued together since that time.

The second John Talbot became Lord High Treasurer of England and was later killed in the battle of North Hampton in the Wars of the Roses in 1460

Map of kingdoms of Medieval Wales from Wikipedia

The Welsh line to the Talbots, on and off rulers of Deheubarth. 

Hywell Dda
Rhys ap Tewdwr(say that last name two or three times fast and see who it reminds you of)
Rhys ap Gruffydd 1132-1197 ruler of the kingdom of Deheubarth in Southern Wales.
Rhys Gryg (Rhys the Hoarse)
Prince Rhys Mechyll House of Dinefwr, kingdom of Deheubarth
Gwendolyn Mechyll marries the first Gilbert Talbot.

The kingdom in reduced, then rebuilt form, bounced around between brothers and direct heirs through the Norman period.  It continued beyond Prince Rhys till it was reduced to only Cantref Mawr( a bit farther to the east, mostly in Brycheiniog in the map above) into the 1280s.  I don't know about you, but I cannot imagine my family twisting their tongues around the complex sounds of the Welsh language.  How amazing!

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